FIA Papers

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John Clarke
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by John Clarke »

I had a long chat with Jim Lowry, one of guys who will come and inspect your car when applying for HTP's. Jim is a Morgan owner and racer and organisers the Equipe GTS series. In his role with the FIA, he is discouraged from entering on-line forum debates so with his permission, I reproduce some of the more interesting points we discussed (well it was to me!!!).

Importantly, the FIA appendix K regulations are designed to replicate motor sport as it happened in period - not what "could have happened".

Up until 1st January 1962 - there was no need for a GT car to be homologated. Therefore - anyone can now replicate the specification of any car which competed in an FIA International event before this date.

Therefore any period E (pre 1962) Plus 4 can either replicate the Super Sport's specification as detailed on the homologation papers number 37, or could replicate the specification of any other car which competed in an appropriate event. Considering various specification cars competed in for example - the RAC rally, there are several options available .

For period F ( 1962-1965) all GT cars competing in an FIA International event had to be of a recognised type, hence the need for homologation papers and all competing cars had to comply to the period Appendix J regulations and to relevant homologated specifications.

Period F Plus 4 Morgans therefore must adhere to homologation papers number 64 - or number 128 should you dare to fit the alloy cross flow cylinder head (...and if your pockets are deep enough!!).

Importantly, the mechanical specification must follow the period homologation taking note of what you can and cannot modify in compliance with the current FIA Appendix K regulations for historic cars.

Although the body shape was detailed in photographs, Appendix J rules in period allowed complete freedom of body shape and material and therefore cars such as the SLR Morgan could compete within these regulations as a GT car using the homologation of the standard Super Sports model. Other similarly modified bodied cars included Low Drag E Type Jaguars, Sebring Sprites, etc.

Therefore, bodywork must be as per the homologation - or a car can replicate an actual car which competed within the regulations in an FIA International event in period.

At least at this time - Anyone is free to build themselves a replica of an SLR and then apply for an FIA HTP.(even deeper pockets!!)

Additionally, providing substantial evidence can be provided that for example an otherwise homologated specification Morgan Super Sports competed in an FIA International event in period without a hard top fitted , then this would be equally acceptable. You might find car number 42 in the Sebring 12hour races provide evidence for any high line body car, then look at the Rod Slotemaker / Robin (Hugh?) Braithwaite car number 42 at the Nurburgring 1000k in 1963 for a period F low line car

Some other points:

As from 1955, a full width screen was mandatory in all GT classes in all FIA International events. It is therefore very tricky to prove that an aeroscreen is permissable.

Rim widths - 4.5J for period E - 4.5J or 5.5J for period F. Note; the track was not increased when the wider 5.5J rims were added to the homologation No;64. 5 inch rims do appear on form 128 as an addendum and were offered as standard fitting on a SS ordered from the factory.

Period E or F Summary?

1991cc ( 1995cc ?) for period E - 1991cc or 2138 for period F.

High body only for period E - High or low line body for period F.



If you would like to speak to Jim he has offered an open invitation to call him, see http://www.historique.co.ukfor contact information.
Mark Hoble
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Mark Hoble »

Thanks for this John. As Jim will be inspecting my Plus 4 soon I'd better get busy with an SLR body.

Mark
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Jochem Kentgens
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Jochem Kentgens »

This thread ended long ago but still things are confusing...

I have HTP papers on my 1964 low line SS spec car. No problem...of course Homologation form 64, of course equipped with hardtop and everything else straight forward...

Now I wanted to arrange HTP papers on my blue 1959 high line +4 too... I raced it in the FISC eurotour previously but one doesnt need FIA papers and therefore I never bothered arranging them... But now I want to do so after all...

In the fISC Eurotour I raced the car XOV style... so aero screen and no hardtop.

It being a 1959 car, i thought just request a HTP form and fill in according to homologation no 37. Being for GTS6 class (up to 31/12/1961).

now it comes..... I received a phone call today from the Dutch FIA office and they say.... thanks for your request, we will check the papers and specs etc.....but....are you sure you need homologation specs no 37? because there is one other Dutch 1959 Morgan registered (that appeared to be XOV) and it has HTP papers based on homologation no 64, being supersport homologation for post 1962 cars..... and it therefore will run in class GTS11 (from 1962 - 1965)..... I said no it doesnt...it races in group GTS6...where I also want to be...... she says no...impossible, it must run in GTS11....

Now I no longer understand.....Ad, I dont know if you are on this group, but if you are, please explain... or anybody else?

It goes without saying that I am trying to get the car on papers so that I can race it in XOV style..... with no hardtop...but when I got my papers on my 64 car they explicitly told me that for that period (homologation no: 64) one must run hardtop style....

So why does XOV race in GTS6 group (at le mans classic plateau 3) with GTS11 papers, with no hardtop?

I gues it would make sense to at least run it on homologation no 37 papers in Group GTS06?

Or am I making things complicated?

I will just go for homologation 37, with a 1991 cc engine, and will try to enter an event topless to see what happens...?

Help...!!!!
Leigh Sebba
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Leigh Sebba »

At Algarve races last month there was +4 raced by Nico Zonnerveld which I think had aeroscreen but I have no idea what papers (if any) it had. I think he is Dutch.
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Mary Lindsay
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Mary Lindsay »

Have you spoken to Jim Lowry about it ?
He is one of the UK inspectors for HTP papers and is very knowledgeable about Plus 4s.
If you don't have contact details then send me a PM and I can put you in touch.
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Jochem Kentgens
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Jochem Kentgens »

Hi Leigh,

Nico indeed is Dutch and he has homologation no 64 papers on his 1963 SS spec car. It always surprised me that he was allowed to race the car with an aeroscreen and wider wheels in Holland but I thought the Dutch FIA representatives just were not so into Morgans and their specific rules. But now he was permitted in the Mastes Series for two events ....isnt this just the green light for all of us to take the hardtops off....? Or do you think he was permitted as a guest driver only?

No serious, I think that with the post 1962 cars, we are all on the same page..... hardtop form or at least full windscreen if you want to play by the rules. Other set ups might work for an event or two, but not in the long run.

But the pre 1961 high line cars such as my blue car ..... there might be a possibility to go the aero screen "XOV" route... I will at least try and will let you all know what happens.

I would love to contact Mr Lowry on this matter. Mary, if you could send his contact detaiils to: jochem@deal-factory.com, that would be much appreciated. Thanks for your help!

Jochem
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Jochem Kentgens
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Jochem Kentgens »

ah...by the way.... I found a picture of Chris Lawrence racing TOK in a FIA race at Goodwood in September 1960.

The picture is in Motorsport - issue October 1960.

The car is seen from the rear and you can see that TOK already has the normal body style (high line but not the bustle back rear end as before). And he races the car with no windscreen at all. No aero screen either, but no full width windscreen.

Maybe this is the XOV secret? Used as evidence that indeed pre 1961 the cars were allowed in FIA events without full windscreen?

Again..... I will try and will let you all know the outcome!

Jochem

If anyone wants the picture, send me an email off line (jochem@deal-factory.com)
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John Clarke
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by John Clarke »

Hi Jochem
I spent an interesting day with Peter Horsman - we were on a long trip so were able to chew over historic racing matters. Peter is now into historic Lotii but be it Morgans or Lotus, the same conundrums crop up time and time again.

Some cars have HTPs signed off to a spec that are difficult to match with historic records. A car trying to get the same spec signed off now could fail as I understand the MSA/FIA are getting keener on adhering to period specs i.e." 'cos he has it, so can I" does not now seem to wash with the MSA/FIA.

HTPs are based on the spec of cars competing in international races. Peter and I debated what constitutes an 'international' race? There were many races during the '50s and '60s with foreign drivers driving for 'international' teams - but for whatever reason, they were not deemed international meetings. There is a book packed with reports from Goodwood, Silverstone et al which makes this point see http://www.motorbooks.co.uk/review.asp?bookid=98833

Finally, the guys that run series for historic cars can allow any car, in any spec they wish. Many are chasing entries to make the figures add up so it is not surprising to see cars 'out of spec' or 'out of year' racing together. Most scrutineers are checking for safety, not compliance with HTP papers....so most are allowed to race.

So here's our conundrum, if you think a car does not comply with the 'rules' of the race, but has HTP papers mirroring the car's spec then what do you do? Your beef is not with the race organisers (they accepted the car) or the owner (he has papers matching their cars spec) but arguably with the MSA/FIA who signed off the papers for the car in the first place. We're not sure there is a procedure for protesting the MSA/FIA and in any case what would anyone gain??

So its a bit of a mine field - the only truism are the actual papers signed off in period. In our case 37,64,128 or whatever. So my advice - get your papers, enter the race and if you want to take the hard top off, do so. You may be asked to put it back on but equally likely, you may not.

Good luck

john
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Mary Lindsay
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Mary Lindsay »

Hi Jochem,
I have sent you an email with Jim's contact details.
Good luck!
Best wishes,
Mary
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Mark Shears
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Mark Shears »

Hi Jochem,

John is absolutely right. But the man who will know for sure is Jim Lowry. Mary is quite correct to recommend him - he has been most helpful in assisting me to get the FIA HTP papers for the Red car.

I think you can run the car without a hardtop - the rules in period stipulated that you must fit a full width windscreen to comply with the then change of rules for GTS cars (such as Morgans, TRs, Austin Healeys etc). It was in an attempt to make them more aerodynamic that they all fitted hardtops of one shape or another.

Aero-screens however are strictly verboten!

Cheers

Mark
Jim Lowry
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Jim Lowry »

Hi Jochem

Mark has replied within the time it took me to compile my own reply - and as far as I understand he has answered your questions correctly.

So I will add to it, despite my previously mentioning, being an MSA scrutineer we are often reminded to not submit points of view onto internet forums on the basis that our own opinions may not mirror exactly those of the MSA and/or the FIA.

However . . . . . I can see no harm in simply quoting or pointing poeple in the direction of certain parts of various regulations which may help them understand the basic principles.

Appart from having the period homologation for your own make and model of car, I cannot stress enough that you need to download from FIA.com the various Appendix J regulations from each period along with the current Appendix K regulations for Historic Cars.

Please again refer you to the previous "Quaife LSD" topic where it is written;


Firstly the car was homologated in period. This homologation basically was a declaration made by the manufacturer confirming the required amount of cars had been produced over a required amount of time and to the specification as detailed.

Secondly and in each period, cars needed to comply with the then current Appendix J regulations which were often updated during each period. Copies of these can be downloaded from FIA.com. See those dated 1965 for Period F - being the final regulations for that period.

We will notice Appendix J in period, Improved Touring cars and Grand Touring cars were allowed certain modifications over and above those listed on the homologation, the freedom of fitting an anti roll bar and/or an oil cooler for example.


Please understand.
1/ Appendix J were the regulations in period.
2/ Appendix K are the current regulations for historic cars.


You will see in Appendix K - on page one it states 1.2 Appendix K applies to cars which are either original competition cars, or cars built to exactly the same specification as models with an International competition history complying with the International rules of the period.

Whilst club GT and or Sports race cars in each period may have been allowed to compete in certain events with an aero screen, you will note in the International Appendix J regulations for period E - GT cars it clearly states in chapter IV-270 "A windshield is compulsory" it then goes onto describe the required dimensions, etc.

Same again applies to period F where the International Appendix J regulations for this period - again in chapter IV-270 is stated "A windshield is compulsory" etc.

Look again at Appendix K - section APPENDIX.IX which are -to remind you the current regulations for competition GT cars and look at regulation 13.1 which (nearly) clarifies the situation.

Quite simply - I will repeat;
cars which are either original competition cars, or cars built to exactly the same specification as models with an International competition history complying with the International rules of the period.

It is possible that a Morgan competed Internationally with an aeroscreen in this period, but I would suggest that If any car did compete in an event in the late 1950's and/or early 1960's with an aeroscreen fitted, then the event was either not of International status, or the car was not running within Appendix J regulations for the GT class.

Please also note a further class for Group 4 - Sports cars in both period E and F Appendix J Regulations which applied to models;
"recognised by the FIA but not complying with the specifications required" etc. It is very possible that a Morgan may have competed in any specification in an International competition, but would have been classed as a "Sports" car and classified against other non recognised cars, sports racing cars and prototype cars.

Finally, please see Appendix K - APP.VIII - 14.4.9 where for a production GT car it states;
"Any dismountable hardtop from the period of the class, as supplied by the vehicle manufactureror by an outside supplier" is authorised.

To conclude;

To be granted an HTP, the car must be an original or replica of any actual car which competed "LEGALLY" in an International event in period.

GT cars from 1955 onwards must have a full width windshield.

Running with or without a hard top is optional.

I hope I still have a job in the morning.

Cheers

Jim





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Last edited by Jim Lowry on Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Mark Shears
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Mark Shears »

I told you he was THE man!

Are you coming to the Plus 4 Racers lunch Jim at The Leathern Bottle, Lewknor on 8th January? Or would you be ostracised for fraternising with the 'enemy' ?!!!

Cheers

Mark
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Jochem Kentgens
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Jochem Kentgens »

Thanks Jim, this is 100% clear to me.

the complexity is more in the "international event" status is the past, and the different classes within such events, then thre is in appendices and homologation details.

This has been very helpful and I will also pass this on to the other Dutch Mogs, because there have been some discussions on the matter... as everywhere else probably....

Thanks again and best wishes,

Jochem
Jim Lowry
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Jim Lowry »

-


Re; ostracised for fraternising with the 'enemy' ?!!!

Only trying to help ......

-

Re; The Leathern Bottle, Lewknor on 8th January?

Hard to refuse if you're buying the beers Mark.




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jack bellinger
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by jack bellinger »

just looking at a 1963 November Motor Sport..
Brooklands Trophy Winner at Goodwood.. Adrian Dence.. by a narrow margin
..Aided by its Inclined-Valve Head !!
By the way He was Driving TOK 25 something cant see the last digit

jack
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