FIA Papers

For those interested in competing 4 cylinder Morgans

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John Clarke
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FIA Papers

Post by John Clarke »

There are a few cars planning to get FIA papers. I have set up this section to post queries.

I have seen two sets of 'period' FIA papers for Morgan +4s kindly sent on to me by Richard Plant.

Dated 10 June 1961 for Mogan +4 with Reg 49 AFK with 1991cc engine (GT Class - FIA no 37)

Dated 16 June 1962 for Morgan +4 supersports with Reg TOK 258(?) with 1991cc and 2138cc engine (GT Class - FIA no 64)

I had not seen these when I applied for my FIA papers and from memory, I sent a draft to Rick Bourne who put me right in a few areas. I assume he was referencing the 1962 papers. They are interesting reading!!!
Ps. Food for thought: XOV is the only +4, I know of, that holds FIA papers and is not required to run with a hard top on account of it holding a piece of paper saying it raced in period without one. That being the case shouldn't we be in a position to lay claim that we are doing nothing more than copying XOV? That way we would avoid the requirement to cocoon ourselves in our cars. Personally, I hate the idea of having to put a hardtop on the car.
There may well be other 'period' FIA papers for Morgan +4's around and maybe available by request from the MSA??
Andy Garlick
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Andy Garlick »

John
I hate to confue things further but there was yet another submission for the +4 (1965 from memory?), this was based again on TOK 258 but this time the engine was the TR based Lawrence cross flow unit , I am at work so I don't have all the details to hand , but I can print them off for anyone who would find genuinely useful (or was just curious) for the price of a pint.
Regards
Andy
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John Emberson
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by John Emberson »

When I bought RU it had its original FIA papers but of course I had to get the now required HTP papers for current eligibility to FIA events. I must say that Jim Lowry (of Equipe GTS) was very helpful to me in this process (he is one of the MSA scrutineers that one may elect to use to complete the MSA HTP documents).

I think the point of the two sets of FIA homologation papers is that the FIA no.37 set relates to Period E 1947 to 1961 and the FIA no. 64 set relates to Period F in which the only eligible Morgan is the 2.2 litre Supersports based on the 1962 homologation. For RU I opted for Period E as it was manufactured in 1961 & its FIA Class of GTS6 allows engine sizes of between 1.6 & 2.5 litres per Appendix K.

I probably have this completely wrong but it's how I understood it at the time! I also have no idea XOV got homologated with no roof............
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Jonathon Rushton
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Jonathon Rushton »

Gents,

I do have two sets of FIA homologation papers but rather stupidly I put them in the care of Simon Watson at TR Enterprises and I haven't seen them since. I will get them sent back and go through each in detail.

Andy, a pint is always on offer if you are in London town from time to time.

As for which FIA papers. At the moment I think it is very much a matter of watch this space.


Jonathon

Ps. Andy, I had Alan Dunn to stay with Claire and I for a night on his travels back up to Cumbria from Slovenia. Such was his hangover the following morning he missed his train at Euston. I received a telephone call from Alan at Euston station whilst he tried to negotiate another train ticket, crying with laughter saying he felt twenty years younger! So he should, he'd managed to destroy the best part of a bottle of Talisker....
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John Clarke
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by John Clarke »

All fascinating stuff!!

A comparison between the '61 and '62 papers show that they are vitually identical. The only differences I can see are:
('61 then '62)

Inlet Valve increased from 33.5mm to 39.5mm

Addition of axle ratio 3.56

Addendum to increase fuel capacity from 45 litres to 82 litres and wheel width from 113 to 140mm

And that's it!!!
I think the point of the two sets of FIA homologation papers is that the FIA no.37 set relates to Period E 1947 to 1961 and the FIA no. 64 set relates to Period F in which the only eligible Morgan is the 2.2 litre Supersports based on the 1962 homologation.
The '62 homologation is also for a 1991cc engine as TOK of course ran at Le Mans in the under 2 litre class, but it also raises the option of the 2138cc engine. I can only assume that Period E restricts Morgans to under 2 litres????

Interesting stuff.......
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Mary Lindsay »

Addition of axle ratio 3.56
Is this a Salisbury ratio? I thought the Plus 4 Salisbury ratio is 3.57.
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by John Emberson »

The '62 homologation is also for a 1991cc engine as TOK of course ran at Le Mans in the under 2 litre class, but it also raises the option of the 2138cc engine. I can only assume that Period E restricts Morgans to under 2 litres????
I think Jim Lowry explained to me that if you ever wanted to be eligible for an under 2 litre race you would be better having Period E homologation but maybe I misunderstood this? Also, Appendix K seems to imply that class GTS6 may have engines above 2 litres but I assume this is governed by the homologation papers.
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by John Clarke »

One debate I have had with many racers is what is allowed on the car and still get HTP papers?

A common argument is "that it was fitted in period" or "I can prove that the factory listed it as an option in period" - but if it is not listed on the original FIA papers is it still permissable?

If the HTP papers are sanctioned, and a "modern" development has slipped through - is it then deemed permissable on all subsequent HTP applications?

Following John's thread - if a class permits larger engines, again, if this was not homolgated in period, should it be permissable on HTP papers?

I have held the view (perhaps wrongly) that if it ain't on the original papers it shouldn't be on the HTP papers - perhaps someone can put me right

(for Mary - I stated what appears on the original '62 FIA papers)
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Mary Lindsay
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Mary Lindsay »

for Mary - I stated what appears on the original '62 FIA papers
Thanks John, I was just curious, as I am sure that the Salisbury ratio is conventionally 3.73.
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simon king
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by simon king »

Hi all,

The following list is an extract from a PDF document titled 'List of previously Homologated Cars' that can be found on the FIA website under the section titled 'FIA Historic Racing Championships' (Source: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... omolog.pdf)

Hom. Grp Make Model Cyl. Hom. Date ASN Ext

37 GT Morgan Plus 4 1991 10.06.1961 GB 0
64 GT Morgan Plus 4 Super Sports 1991 16.06.1962 GB 1
128 GT Morgan Plus 4 Super Sports 1991 09.05.1963 GB 0

131 GT Morgan 4/4 1498 05.09.1963 GB 0
175 GT Morgan 4/4 1498 16.11.1964 GB 0

Although not dated 1965, is Hom. 128 the one Andy was thinking of in ralation to: 'TOK with TR based Lawrence cross flow unit'?

I only have Hom. 64 papers, but in this it says in relation to Axle ratios - Final drive ratio of 3.73, and lists Alternatives as 4.1, 3.56 & 2.8

Addtionally, although the papers primarily detail the engine to be 1991cc (Bore 83mm Stroke 92mm) they do also list an alternative engine capacity of 2138cc (Bore 86mm).

Like you John, I was of the view that the Homologation papers represent the statement of fact in determining 'Period Specification' as defined in Appendix K, which, in Regulation 3.3.7 states 'For Homologated Cars, only Original FIA homologation papers, with such extensions and variations, as were homologated in the period concerned are valid.'

Addtionally App. K states in relation to Morgan
'The only model eligible with the 2.2 litre engine in Period F is the Plus Four Super Sports conforming to FIA homologation form n° 64 of 1962.'

One, it seems, also needs to bear in mind what Appendix K allows too, i.e. with the Super Sports classified under 'Post 1946 Competiton Grand Touring Cars (GTS)' Sub Appendix IX - Modifications Authorised for Cars of Period E,F and G1 for Competition Touring Cars and Competition Grand Touring Cars' allows for example, reboring 'to a maximum oversize of 1.2mm of the original bore, provided that the increase does not change the period capacity class of the car.' Also 'A limited slip differential of a type conforming to a period specification for that model may be used'. These are just two examples, other alterations are permitted.

In relation to
'Ps. Food for thought: XOV is the only +4, I know of, that holds FIA papers and is not required to run with a hard top on account of it holding a piece of paper saying it raced in period without one. That being the case shouldn't we be in a position to lay claim that we are doing nothing more than copying XOV? That way we would avoid the requirement to cocoon ourselves in our cars. Personally, I hate the idea of having to put a hardtop on the car.'
From an HTP perspective I believe there would be nothing at all to stop anyone from altering their Morgan to match XOV's specification/it's FIA HTP papers (the HTP is only confirming a car matches a period specification afterall). I suppose it comes down to what you want your car to be described as / event you want to take part in / year and class that's going to offer the most fun!

So it would seem then the options would be:

Prepare your car to XOV spec (whatever spec that is,and approved by the MSA/FIA) for period E
Prepare your car to Hom 37 Plus 4 (period E) spec i.e. 1991cc with max 1.2mm overbore, LSD etc
Prepare your car to Hom 64 Plus 4 Super Sports (period F) spec i.e. 1991cc or 2138cc with max 1.2 overbore, LSD etc.

One further point of interest for me is the classification of Hom 37 cars in App K GTS class. Initially when I was trying to determine what App K class applied I determined that the Plus 4 SS was clearly competition derived therefore GTS. I assumed the Hom 37 being for a 'Plus 4' would therefore fall under the GT classification, but since John says the detail of Hom 37 and 64 are almost identical it makes sense that Hom 37 cars are GTS too?

Regards,

Simon
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Mark Shears
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Mark Shears »

Hi Simon,

Great to hear from you - and so erudite too! I hope FOJ is going to be fit this season - let us know what you are planning to do.

I do not know of any UK period papers that specifically relate to Morgans running roofless. Unless XOV being a late 1950's car enables it to be accepted in an earlier period that accepts aeroscreens.Or there are some foreign papers extant?

Cheers

Mark
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Andy Garlick »

OK
I promised to let you have some details , anyone who needs the originals of these please let me know . They are relatively poor scans of poor photocopies so please don't shoot the pianist if you can't read tem either.
I am very grateful to Gerry Wilburn (of +4+ fame) for a copy of these.

The papers were sumitted on 9th May 1963 and the homologation number is FIA 1/128

The car used to illustrate is difficult to identify precisely as no numbers are visible , but it does resemble XRX 1 or TOK 258 , it is definitely a low line SS body

The engine is the LT cross flow unit, with a declared capacity of 1995 cc (not 1991!)
Stroke of 92 mm , bore of 83mm (max overbore 1mm)
The carbs are 45 DCOE8s (with 42 DCOE8s as options)
Alloy cylinder head
Inlet valves 43 mm , 37 mm exhaust

Rear end 3.73 ratio with 4.1, 3.56, 2.8 as options

Rear shocks are lever arms(!)

1 or 2 brake master cylinders

Tyres are 5.25 x 15 front, 5.60 rear
Rims are specified as 122k mm width (which is nonsense! I suspect someone converted 5 inches wrongly)

Tank is only 45 litres

The body is specified as Ali with f/glass hard top BUT "open 2 seater" is optional (but the windscreen is still stipluated, no aeroscreens!)

I don't know if that helps you all or not , I expect that it like the curates egg it "good in parts"

All the best to those +4 drivers competing in 2009

Andy
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Roger Bonsall
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Roger Bonsall »

Hi guys

I don't know if this helps people going for FIA papers, but I competed regularly against 49AFK (Ian Swift and later Andy Pugh) and XOV (dear Ray of course) between 1962 and 1968. Neither ever had a hard-top fitted in that period. Both were of course 'high-line' cars and both co-incidentally were 1959-built cars.

Also, I remember Ray considering shortening the wind-screen and I think he did do this at some stage.

Roger Bonsall.
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Phil Egginton »

Andy Garlick wrote:The engine is the LT cross flow unit, with a declared capacity of 1995 cc (not 1991!)
Stroke of 92 mm , bore of 83mm (max overbore 1mm)
The carbs are 45 DCOE8s (with 42 DCOE8s as options)
Alloy cylinder head
Inlet valves 43 mm , 37 mm exhaust
Andy out of interest was this Lawrence head a downdraught one?

I recall Reg Woodcock (TR3 racer of renown in the 60's, 70's and 80's) making his own copy which was downdraughted and used Amal motorbike carbs. He tried to get it into the Thoroughbred Series (then run by AMOC) but they said no... as they had no period proof.... your FIA papers would have helped no doubt!
Phil Egginton
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Re: FIA Papers

Post by Andy Garlick »

Hi Phil
No this was a pretty standard looking inlet tract , the carbs are normally angled at about 15 to 18 deg I seem to remember. The combustion chambers are hemi shaped, the valve sizing is very different, but the biggest external difference is the cross flow , inlets on off side , exhausts to near side.
Yes I remember Reg Woodcock well , I only managed to beat him once in my AMOC/Charles Spreckley Thoroughbred Sports Car days. Funny that when I talked with him about the Lawrence head he said it would never work because the push rods were too long and went through too great an angle.
Other sources told me that the head did not work because the central spark plug kept fouling and they could not get it to run cleanly.
Whatever its issues it was an interesting piece of history, and quite a few myths have grown up with it.
John Macdonald tried to buy a head from Lawrence in the late 60s (probably 68) but was unsuccessful, perhaps that was a blessing in disguise.
Regards to you and Bev,
Andy
PS Where will you race in Portugal , Estoril? That looks like a nice circuit that would suit a Mog
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