Aerodynmics

[Bob Bull]

Back in the late '50's The Cooper Car Company produced an 1100cc sports car with a rear mounted Coventry Climax engine and a central driver seat. The car was known as 'the Bobtail' because of the truncated rear end and the concave bodywork at the back of the car, at the time there were two schools of thought advanced as to the reason for the treatment of the tail.
1) It was based on the aerodynamic theories of a certain Dr Kamm who believed that as the vacuum, created by the passage of the car, was filled by air rushing in it would be channeled around the concave bodywork providing a degree of thrust and thus increased speed. I can remember few other cars with similar bodywork at the rear so presumably the theory found few devotees, certainly not with the Morgan Motor Company.

2) The design was dictated by the amount of room in the Cooper transporter.

I wonder if any of the more technically minded might have any thoughts on Dr. Kamm's theory, or indeed on the length of the Cooper transporter?

[jack bellinger]

Bob You mean like this..

This was The Streamliner body fitted by John Cooper for Jack Brabhams F1 at the 1957 Riems Grand prix
as Riems had such a long straight ..But in testing the front lifted at 190mph and the car became unstable .Jack refused to drive the car with this body. so it was shelved,, hung up on their Garage wall until 1959. When a bloke called John Moore done a deal and got the Body . and fitted it to his 1172cc 750 formula junior car called a Warwick mk2

[Bob Bull]

Jack,
That is the bodyshape I referred to, first used in 1954 on the 1100cc sports car, Brabham fitted a 2.0 litre Bristol engine in a single seater version and started the 1955 British Grand Prix, however, at Reims in 1957 Cooper entered a version in the F2 race, but it was Salvadoori who did not like the handling. Bill Whitehouse had blown his own car in practice so borrowed the streamliner for the race, but unfortunately crashed fatally when a tyre burst. I do not think they tried the all enveloping body in the F1 race, but I would never argue with an expert.

[quote="Bob Bull"*]When a bloke called John Moore done a deal and got the Body . and fitted it to his 1172cc 750 formula junior car called a Warwick mk2[/quote]

John Moore? Did he used to race a Lister Bristol?

Bob

* No I never!

[jack bellinger]

Appolgies 1959 grand prix at Riems Interesting I got my Info from John Moore,Doug Nye,s Book Cooper Cars andThe French Grand Prix by David Hodges .It was only tested
And it seems it had been tried on a F2 as well.

amazing what you find when you look

jack

[jack bellinger]

Ps with what he started in 750 formula John Moore started proudcing race clutches and Brakes his Company is now Alcon

jack

[Andy Downes]

I can remember few other cars with similar bodywork at the rear so presumably the theory found few devotees,

How about the Le Mans Sunbeam Alpines (running alongside TOK) in the early 60s.

Ferrari 250 and 'Dino'

Ford GT40

Alfa Romeo Spyder

Frank Costin's (another aerodynamicist) Costin Nathan sports racer and many other of his designs

Toyota Prius
and a few others.

Andy

[Bob Bull]

Andy,
Thanks for your contribution to the subject, as I stated in an earlier 'post' I would not argue with an expert (you are an expert .. aren't you?). I did not research the Kamm theory to seek further examples of it's application, but I know the AC Daytona Cobra has a similar treatment, as can be seen at the Revival each year.
Are the cars you mentioned utilising the concave bodywork as an aerodynamic aid or simply 'short tailed'? Should their designers have opted for the 'Kamm Theory' presumably there was evidence to suggest it did improve performance, which would be most interesting to know. In the early '60's when Jack Brabham and Bruce McLaren were team mates at Cooper there were suggestions that they used 'slipstreaming' as an aid to increase the speed of the car in front! Never officially acknowledged as far as I know. Any thoughts?

Jack,
I also used the book on Cooper Cars for my info on the streamliner at Rheims, of course the 1957 race was not the French GP, but the Grand Prix of Marne, the GP was held at Rouen that year. I always thought the Reims (alternative spelling) was a fabulous circuit, pure speed was all you needed. The DVD, 'A Gentlemans Motor Racing Diary' features a lap of the circuit taken from the writers Aston Martin and gives a good idea of what it was like to race on. It also has coverage of the Sports Car Race and the Grand Prix (1955) and if you do not have a copy you should get one.

Nice to have a civilised discourse for a change, Eh?

Kind regards,

Bob.

[jack bellinger]

I will look out for that DVD sounds good ..
i have a Vidio called Charge of the Fright Brigade / Formula junior 60 (Roscoe films)
On it is the Streamliner Cooper Bodied car at Mallory ..as it comes aroun the corner it tries to take out the camera man Sure you would enjoy that.

Riems = English version

jack

[Bob Bull]

Jack (and anybody else who likes motor sport history),
There are two volumes of the DVD, "A Gentleman's Motor Racing Diary", both 90 minutes long, and use 8mm & 16mm cinefilm taken by a chap called John Tate of the Tate & Lyle sugar family. He was a motor racing enthusiast and recorded his visits to Goodwood, Silverstone, Boreham, Snetterton, Le Mans etc on film. I bought them in a garden centre for £4.99 each and they are phenomenal value. I can not recommend them highly enough. You can also get them from www.fastforwardmusic.co.uk.
They cover from late forties to late fifties in black and white, and colour. You can also get 'Mike Hawthorn' and 'Rob Walker' in the same series.

Action from Rheims, Reims & Riems (sic).

Happy viewing,

Bob (your old China)

[Andy Downes]

Are the cars you mentioned utilising the concave bodywork as an aerodynamic aid or simply 'short tailed'? Should their designers have opted for the 'Kamm Theory' presumably there was evidence to suggest it did improve performance, which would be most interesting to know.

Bob,

I suspect there there is a bit of everything in here, on the performance cars (and especially at Le Mans with Mulsanne) then the advantage may have been felt, some may be bandwagon jumping, and in the modern examples efficiency = economy and in this regard I guess "every little helps".

Costin was a master where airflow and drag were concerned so if he chose to use it on many of his (not all high performing) cars, then that speaks volumes to me.

Thanks for the Film/DVD tips - my own would be Steve McQueen's 1971 "Le Mans" whch is now available on DVD - absolutely stunning race sequences (real) and a peformance of considerable verbal restraint from it's star being entirely appropriate. The story behind the film's conception and making is even more fascinating - rumour has it that McQueen regretted turning down the part in "Grand Prix" and eventually made his own racing film to compensate - thank god he did !

And of course Richard Shepherd-Barron's "Behind The Pits" is hard to beat for an old Morgan man.

Andy

[Andrew Potter]

Andy- Good to hear your mention of 'Le Mans' and 'Grand Prix', and Jack for your mentioning other DVDs of note. Specifically 'Le Mans'- I used to follow David Piper (amongst others)during the sixties , a very successful minnow against the sharks, and it was, of course, during the making of 'Le Mans' that he lost his leg, and had it not been for the inefficiency of his French doctors he may well have been able to keep it in one piece. As one of the 'Lunch with..' articles in Motor Sport David Piper is the featured guest this month. A great man!
Andrew

[Andy Downes]

Hello Hot Laps - good to hear from you

I think our heros betray our respective ages (thankfully I'm ahead for once) - it was De Cadenet for me.

I saw the Le Mans film in the cinema when it came out and loved it. However it was only when re-watching it on DVD that I was able to really appreciate what a fascinating piece of work it is, and of course I'm much more interested in Le Mans and 'historic' racing. The proper race sequences (no CGI here) all add to the realism and the camera car a Porsche 908/2 finished a remarkable 9th despite the heavy cameras and frequent stops to change the film reels !

Andy

[Bob Bull]

Andy (and anyone else who cares to read this item),
Having the house to myself yesterday I took the opportunity to play the DVD I mentioned (Mrs. B's not wholly entranced by motor sport DVD's), the first piece of film was taken at the 1953 Le Mans 24 Hour and during the build up to the race, John Tate shows the works Cunningham with the back end according to Kamm!!
I have never picked it up in the past, and it pre-dates the Cooper by a year, why do I open my big mouth?

A story you may not have heard concerns the 1970 Sebring 12 Hour Race won by Giunti/Vaccarella/Mario Andretti in a Ferrari just six seconds ahead of a Porsche driven by Peter Revson and Steve McQueen, apparently the Porsche was closing down the Ferrari as the race went into it's final laps, and after the race Andretti is quoted as saying; "I was driving my butt off in that thing. No way was I gonna be beaten by an actor!"
McQueen was not just a racing fan, but a pretty good driver as well.

Andrewp,
I have interviewed David Piper a couple of times for 3CR and I have a CD with him and several other luminaries of the sport that I have put together,Jack Brabham, Peter Scott-Russell, Jackie Stewart etc. David's item is pure history as he just talks about his early days racing 750's against Colin Chapman, Mike Hawthorn pouring a pint of beer over his head, and much more. I will have to let you have a copy, I am sure you will love it.

Jack,
Interestingly, the DVD shows footage from the 1955 French GP and the pits have the circuit spelt as Reims, so you were right all along. Mind you it is pronounced as 'Rass' on the commentary.

MY Hero? Mike Hawthorn. That really does date me.

regards to all,

Bob the Historian.

[Andrew Potter]

Thanks, Bob. I would like that very much. I think he mentions the beer episode during his lunch with Simon Taylor, amongst much more.
Andrewp

[Andy Downes]

Hello Bob,

The Kamm reference is indeed interesting, I haven't really looked at the history of Dr Kamm (but I will now). I only came across the Kamm tail because of my interest in Frank Costin and Ortenburger's book "Flying on Four Wheels" sadly now hard to come by.

I do know about the Sebring race - the Porsche McQueen was driving became the camera-car for the film in the 1970 race. It's a good story but from what I have read Peter Revson did most of the work and drove the wheels off the car - not that Andretti would have known that. McQueen could by all accounts 'cut the mustard' though - he applied for a Le Mans entry in 1970 in a Porsche 917 co-driver - Jackie Stewart.

Any chance of a copy to the Piper CD for me too please ?

Hawthorn is another whose style appeals to me - tweed jacket and bow tie, a liking for the beer, and in his biking days racing with a simple slogan on the side - "For the love of the sport" - says it all really.

Andy