Quaife LSD

[Andy Garlick]

Guys
I am posting this on behalf of another Mog owner who does not frequent this forum.
He is awaiting a new LSD for his VVTi engined 4/4.
Billy Bellinger is trying to get a new batch of 10 Quaife LSDs made up and does not have enough orders as yet.
As I understand it (but I am no expert, and no doubt someone here will correct me if I am wrong ) this is the unit of choice for those running the Salisbury 7HA axle, as the old slipping clutch unit was neither reliable nor effective.
I think the cost was expected to be about £600 per unit.
Are there any takers from the historic +4 racers?
Regards
Andy

[Jim Mountain]

i'll give Billy a call

cheers

[John Clarke]

Andy - good post - good to see someone is willing to take up the baton to get new parts made. I could be interested but wish to clear up the acceptance of a LSD by the FIA for historic Mogs. I have a number of copies of the original homologation papers (FIA nos 37, 64,128 - thanks Richard) but can find no reference to a LSD. Can someone point me to the papers I am missing where a LSD is listed?
All this FIA stuff is very confusing!
john

[simon king]

Hi John,

no LSD in the homologation papers for the Super Sports but within App K (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 6.2010.pdf) the Super Sports is classified as a 'Post 1946 Competition Grand Touring Car (GTS)' I believe and therefore 'Appendix IX - > Modifications authorised for Cars of period E, F and G1 for Competition Touring Cars and Competition Grand Touring Cars' also applies and here it says re a Differential
"A limited slip differential of a type conforming to a period specification for that model may be used."

What is 'period specification' though in this case?

Cheers,

Simon

[Mark Shears]

Hi John,

Simon is right.However there are issues...

Give me a ring/email and I will explain!

Cheers

Mark


Hi Simon,

How's FOJ? All together now? What are you plans/thoughts for next season?

[Jim Lowry]

Hi John,

no LSD in the homologation papers for the Super Sports but within App K (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 6.2010.pdf) the Super Sports is classified as a 'Post 1946 Competition Grand Touring Car (GTS)' I believe and therefore 'Appendix IX - > Modifications authorised for Cars of period E, F and G1 for Competition Touring Cars and Competition Grand Touring Cars' also applies and here it says re a Differential
"A limited slip differential of a type conforming to a period specification for that model may be used."

What is 'period specification' though in this case?

Cheers,

Simon

.

Hi Simon.

My understanding is the "period specification" is clearly detailed on the period homologation.

That was the idea of the homologation - to confirm the manufacturer's production specification.

It certainly would appear that plus 4 cars in period F (1962-1965) did not have an option of using a limited slip differential, I would be delighted to hear from anyone who has conclusive evidence that one was actually used in an International event in period.

Even more so, I am not aware they even listed a limited slip differential as a factory option at the time of the homologation ?

My guess would be if one was used at all, it would have been a Salisbury/Thornton Powr-lok clutch type - not a Quaife.

Cheers

Jim

.

[simon king]

Hi Jim,

I understand your assertion that

the "period specification" is clearly detailed on the period homologation.

but in addition to this do we not also need to consider the additonal principles/regulations of FIA App. K, assuming one is going to be competing in an event that applies App. K regulations? i.e.

Appendix K applies to cars which are either original competition cars, or cars built to exactly the same specification as models with international competition history complying with the International rules of the period. The only permissible variations to the period specification are those authorised within Appendix K.

Further, if this is the case then modifications outlined in Appendix IX detail what is additionally permissible does it not?

Assuming the above interpretation is correct, and since you only suggest what might be considered period specification the question therefore remains, if one chose to employ an LSD, what is 'the' period specification in this case and how do we arrive at a definitive answer?

I'll leave it there for now. I need to go and check FOJ before I arrange to see you about HTP papers! [-o<

Regards,

Simon

[Jim Lowry]

Hi Simon.

Let us presume we are talking about a period F (1962-1965) GTS car.

The basic principles are;

Firstly the car was homologated in period. This homologation basically was a declaration made by the manufacturer confirming the required amount of cars had been produced over a required amount of time and to the specification as detailed.

This was then the known specification which should have been followed in International FIA competitions at that time for production cars.

Secondly and in each period, cars needed to comply with the then current Appendix J regulations which were often updated during each period. Copies of these can be downloaded from FIA.com. See those dated 1965 for Period F - being the final regulations for that period.

We will notice Appendix J in period F, Improved Touring cars and Grand Touring cars were allowed certain modifications over and above those listed on the homologation, the freedom of fitting an anti roll bar and/or an oil cooler for example.

Please also note; a full width windscreen was mandatory.

-

So we are now competing in historic events and the idea of Appendix K is to recreate motorsport as closely as possible to how it happened in period. Importantly, not "how it could or might have happened".

As you stated; Appendix K applies to cars which are either original competition cars, or cars built to exactly the same specification as models with international competition history complying with the International rules of the period.

And so, yes when you read section 9 (App.IX) of Appendix K it states what modifications you may do to the car, or which items must remain as per the period / homologated specification. Examples of certain items which may be modified over and above period regulations include dual circuit brakes which are now acceptable.

-

To get the full picture, you need to have a copy of the period Appendix J and then a copy of the period homolgation of your particular car. You then have a copy of the regulations which competitors in period needed to follow.

Then refer to the current Appendix K to see how those regulations effect you today.

Hope this helps clarify. It does sound complicated, but all becomes very logical once you understand how it all works.

-

Now back to the LSD topic.

It certainly would appear that a LSD was not homologated on a Plus 4.

It would also appear at the date of the homologation the Morgan factory did not list a LSD as an option.

This would obviously suggest that International competitors at that time did not use one ?

-

As mentioned before, If anyone can find conclusive evidence that a LSD was actually used Internationally in period, I would certainly like to see it.

Cheers

Jim

[Andy Garlick]

Jim
I have little doubt that in their heyday TOK, XRX , and the other "historic" +4s did not use the LSD initially.
However I am led to believe that they all use them today, and were certainly using them in the 1970s when I was competing against them, in races like the Charles Spreckley Thoroughbreds Sport Cars etc.
To the best of my knowledge when Ray Meredith sold XOV in 1968 it was advertised and sold with an LSD axle, but presumably a Salisbury type, I don't want to get into a debate as to whether XOV ever competed in any international events, but it certainly did a lot of events including prestigious ones , like the Goodwood TT. I have no knowledge about when the LSD was fitted to the car.
Just a little food for thought.
Regards
Andy

[Robin Singleton]

Re LSD fitments to Morgan +4s

My SS which I have had from 1969 is fitted with a Salisbury LSD and always has been during my ownership. I understand that it was fitted from new as I also had a normal LSD which if I remember I sold to Andy many decades ago and it was brand new. So either the car was fitted at the works with an LSD or it was fitted by the distributor, in this case Lawrencetune. No doubt it was fitted for competion for the period from 1964 -69, as the then owner used the car for sprints and hillclimbs. I cant find anything more about the history. I suspect the LSD was fitted by Lawrencetune and that the ordinary diff was taken out when new.

Thought this might be of some interest but whether it helps or not I know not.

Robin Singleton

[Mark Shears]

Hi Robin,

That is very interesting - thank you for letting us know.

We know the factory supplied another Supersports in October 1966 with an LSD (chassis no: 6328) but I know your Supersports is an earlier car - 1963 or 4 if memory serves correct.

By the way my brother in law Richard is on a plane back home to America and he would have thought it coincidental to read your post as he has been asking me all about the Drophead. He was instrumental in helping me get 424 FXK back to Blighty and he is delighted you are bringing the old girl back to her former glory.

Cheers

Mark

[Robin Singleton]

Hi Mark

The SS is a 1964 car with chassis no. 5707. Looking at the factory build sheet there is no indication that the LSD was factory fitted so I presume that on delivery to Lawrencetune it was immediately fitted there for the client.

Re the coupe, progress has been a bit slow due to a rebuild of the engine on the Alvis. However wings, bonnet and cowl are now being fitted up and she should go for painting before the end of the year. I'm tempted to choose a claret red, although there is the alternative of trying to find the orginal colour. Interesting also that on looking at bits of frame that came in the boxes of bits, it appears the orginal trim was in light oatmeal...........no doubt would have been quite stylish when new.

I'll let you have some photos in due course so that you can pass them on to your brother in law.

Quite by chance my brother managed to find a coupe that needed a total rebuild and that is now back to running chassis stage and is shortly to go to Steve's for new bodywork.

Cheers

Robin

[Jochem Kentgens]

Hi Robin,

Have you made any progress on finding a +4 basket case for a competition project?

Have you visited Mike Anthony? Gordon told me a few weeks ago that you might. If there is anything I can help you with in that respect, you know where to reach me offline.

Best, Jochem

[Mark Shears]

Hi Robin,

Yes Eddie said he had a Drophead too! You can't have too much of a good thing - even in one family!

Richard and I would love to see some more pictures of work in progress on 424 FXK.

Her original colour scheme was BRG with stone leather upholstery and wire wheels. She would have looked beautiful in 1963 - and equally so in 2011 or 12 or...

Keep in touch.

Cheers

Mark